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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.09.05 22:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
jenza aranda wrote:from the IRC
[09:12:41] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so if you find a fit that works well and that is something you want to play with a lot....
[09:12:58] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> then you can edit your starter kits to that particular fit
[09:13:17] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and in the process you've spent a little isk on buy some milita bpcs
[09:13:47] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> other than vehicles, this should hold true for infantry fits
[09:14:15] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> is that really too expensive to do?
[09:18:48] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so let's say that you are a new player or say we are restarting after a wipe
[09:19:03] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you have your starter kits which dont run out
[09:19:24] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you play some matches and have some ideas on how to tweak the starter fits
[09:19:36] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so you buy some militia bpc and try it out
[09:19:51] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and let's say that you died a lot and need to buy some more bpcs
[09:20:13] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> but you ran out of isk, so you switch back to the starter fit you had to make some more money
[09:20:45] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> in that case you will not be overly taxed by having to buy militia bpcs agreed?
So the starter fittings are going to be free but other milita stuff being bolted on such as militia CPU modules and stuff BPCs
Thoughts?
I personally dont like it.
Even if the stats were of a lower grade I personally think there need to be BPO versions for every basic suit and fit to allow new players to test and taste all the types/options before they spend skills/isk into a role and end up frustrated/not having fun. Forcing too high an entry cost on new players will kill game growth and participation. And in Dust you're even more likely to lose fits, gear, etc than in EVE. I love the idea of choices, and losses mattering, I fully support that but I think making militia gear BPC instead of BPO is going too far. Maybe, maybe with a hefty reduction to the ISK cost, but even then I find the idea dubious.
New characters, and even more so new players need to have a method by which they can participate without losing more ISK than they're able to make. They'll already be at a disadvantage I see no added merit to making that disadvantage any more extreme (this will become even more compellingly true once EVE/Dust econs are linked and again even more true when Dust is in 0.0 Sec. Anyone new is going to have a rough time making their way as it stands. CCP don't make it even harder).
0.02 ISK
EDIT: I can see BPCs for vehicles, I might even see the method if all the default gear were able to be swapped around between suits etc so you could still build at least a somewhat custom fit at base level. Otherwise it will limit the ability of new players to try new things until much later in their game play (i.e. when skilled up more) and even then it opens the door to more frequent skilling into something that turns out not to be their desired fit/playstyle. Meaningful choices yes, consequences for losses yes, forcing new players to bear a heavier burden no. Because it won't be those already part of an established Corp, or who have fat piles of ISK/experience who will be hindered by this it will be first and foremost those who are new to the game and trying to find their feet. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 04:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Nothin wrote:Sees an economy thread, drops into the economy thread!
Yes, militia items will become consumable in the next patch. They'll also be very inexpensive and should be easily affordable even if you happen to go 0/10 multiple matches in a row. Starter fits will never become consumable and will always be there for you to fall back on.
Overall, the philosophy with the reward system is that you should be able to comfortably play using militia and standard gear and still be earning money most of the time. The intention isn't to bleed you dry, since that doesn't make for a very fun game :) The low earnings after we patched weren't intentional and it later turned out that there was a fairly nasty bug hiding in the reward system: militia BPOs not contributing to the rewards at all and thus as everyone was playing with them, the overall rewards were consistently too way low.
Since we couldn't fix the broken code, we temporarily upped the base reward level.The rewards that you're now getting after the hotfix are more on the level that we intended. Proper fix will be in when we patch, but the reward level should remain fairly close to what you're seeing now. Pester me if it doesn't, it's my job to pay your wages.
Thanks for stopping in and commenting on this :)
I can accept the idea you've presented in theory and if/as it takes form in the same shape then that is likely an iteration that addresses the concerns voiced (at least those voiced by me). Obviously this will take some actual hands on to see if it hits this bar or not but then again this is beta so testing is the name of the game and I'm content to play "lab rat" for the sake of Dust balance (otherwise why would I join a beta eh?).
While I must admit to still being a bit wary of BPCs replacing BPOs that may just be the EVE Indy in me always wanting in on the ground floor ;) and I do also need to acknowledge one clear benefit to new players of going the BPC route.
It will help them to learn to keep their fits stocked which is also important to remember as the character moves forward (I've only just considered this angle).
So, looking forward to the next build and getting my grubby little hands on the new iteration to see how it plays, I'll be posting back with my impressions pro/con or both after I've gotten some time to chew on it.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.09.09 06:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
As stated previously in this thread I'm going to test the new build before making a deep assessment however there are a few things that I see based on reading the rest of the thread.
It seems like the problems CCP is seeking to address and the problems players are seeking to address are in different areas of the game.
Players have voiced concerns about entry barriers, casual play, player retention, and game play frustration (such as going broke, lack of tangible benefit from skills, inability to experiment/customize with starter fits, low optimization/play value of starter fits).
CCP by contrast seems to be concerned with establishing the proper economic balance (which I'll note, having played EVE as an Industrialist, is not trivial in my view)
It seems to me that at present there are several unanswered questions when it comes to how these issues relate, many of which boils down to the macro question "where/what are the Input Streams in Dust". Within EVE players can Mine, PI, accept MPC missions, and fabricate/produce/refine goods, salvage. All of those have a myriad of sub-categories but they serve two general functions, either they are original inputs for ISK/resources into the economy or they allow player skills/actions to reduce the effective cost of goods for that character (opening the door to profits).
So where/what are the input streams in Dust? Who will be producing the goods that Dust players consume, NPCs, Dust players, EVE Players, perhaps a combination of all three? Will things like Loyalty Points (a means in EVE by which a player can earn high quality items from NPCs at a discount) be available to Dust players who are participating in the Low Sec Factional Warfare battles?
In the present build it seems there are two input streams for Dust players, first is ISK earned at the end of a match (effectively a contract aka mission from an NPC source) and second is salvage. We also lack a resale market or any form of player driven production, and have yet to see the effects of local market distribution or availability. I understand this is beta and there are many reasons why we don't have these things yet but their lack leaves many gaping questions for a Dust player trying to assess risk vs reward. In EVE Rule #1 is "don't fly anything you can't afford to lose. In Dust it's still profoundly unclear how much a player can afford to lose while making any progress, and with our only to known market input streams requiring combat (which for most players equals some guaranteed loss) it seems the only way to rebuild your wallet is to run 100% Starter fits (with the new change). There's a legitimate question of the fun value here, i.e. how often can someone be required to play only Starter fits before putting down the game?
With the current CCP method for the new build (i.e. changing militia to BPCs) I am assuming the cost will be incidental, equivalent to something like Charge S ammo, so that more successful play will matter but will never result in a net loss during an average match.  [Warning approximate/fictional numbers follow] If an average KDR (across the whole of the game) is 1:1 and it takes a roughly 7 death per player average to end a non-objective match then for new players seeking to move beyond the (highly constraining) starter fits the new militia gear BPC cost needs to be pegged [/i]below[/i] the average price of those 7 deaths (or whatever the actual number of deaths may be).
Now without going anymore deeply into either EVE economics or the recent CSM notes let me just say that it seems important for Dust players not to be dependent on (i.e. purely a consumer market for) EVE players and that the balance point of this needs to be tied to the new player demographic as it will be easier to enact constraining factors for things like Null Sec MegaCorps (if needed) as Dust expands into those areas, than it will be to work backwards from there/from "the top down" as a top down method very much burdens new players more than established ones.
Absent things listed in the questions above, and with the present confusion of terms (a BPO in EVE does not after all equate to limitless free items, or even free items at all) it's rather obscure for beta testers (anywhere on the spectrum of exposure to fps/eve/dust) to provide direct feedback on the economics side is dubious at best. Which leaves us with the 'player concerns' side of the issue I mentioned above and that (unsurprisingly) is where most of us have focused our feedback/attention.
All of which leads to the question "CCP how does your economic balance account for the aforementioned player concerns?"
Obviously much of this simply needs more testing, but it would really help apply the proper context for our testing and feedback if we're able to have a bit more context about the economic context they'll be couched within.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.09.09 23:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
It would also be nice to get some unification of terms, if Dust and EVE are to share a universe, servers and economy (as is still the plan to the best of my knowledge), Blueprint Originals & Blueprint Copies need to mean the same thing in both games (I have a sneaking suspicion that such is part of the plan but it would be really nice to get some confirmation on that).
My 0.02 ISK
Cross |
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